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Mickey
Starting Member
4 Posts |
 Posted - 06/25/2010 : 3:01:38 PM
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I am new to the forum and although I am familiar with a baitcaster and spinning rod/reel, I have not been fly fishing since I was a kid, (over 30 years ago). Just bought a 4wt set up and will be breaking it in soon on the Niagwa River just below Bennett Springs, a few hours away from St. Louis MO. I have been learning some basic knots and would like to get opinions from some people with experience in their use, and would appreciate anyone taking the time to comment.
When I bought the reel they threw in the backing and some economical WF floating line, as well as leader. The end of the fly line has a four inch braided loop tied on with a nail knot; the loop is tied off with a perfection knot. I was wondering why, or if anybody just uses a perfection knot to create a loop directly on the tip of of the fly line to attach leader? I found a old fly reel at a garage sale and was thinking of doing this.
Next question concerns knot connecting tippet to leader. Does anybody use a loop to loop at this connection or does this create a negative effect on a cast and presentation on the water? It sure would be a lot easier and quicker when changing or replacing tippet.
Again I would aprreciate and look forward to any comments and suggestions.
Hoping to catch some Browns and Rainbows
Mickey |
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Jeff Reardon
Frequent Contributor
909 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2010 : 3:56:36 PM
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Mickey:
If I understand your question, you want to know whether you can just tie a perfection loop in the end of the fly line rather than put it on with some other method?
You could do that, but a knot in a piece of line that large is going to get hung up in your tip top or guides. This will happen anyway with a knot in heavy mono--it happened to me on Monday and let me release a fish a bit earlier than I wanted to  --but it will happen more as that knot gets larger.
If you search the posts here, you'll find a lot of posts about the "best" way to attach the butt end of your leader to fly line. There are 4 or 5 opinionated camps among us. I prefer a whipped loop of 30-40 pound mono at the end of my fly line (and I would have landed that fish on Monday if I'd used that method instead of a nail knot, as I wouldn't have had a knot to hang up).
Other folks like needle knots, braided loops (with or with out a backup of mono or fly tying thread), and several other techniques. Some fly lines come with loops pre-installed.
But I don't think you'll find anyone experienced who prefers to just tie a loop in the fly line. |
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Mike Holt
Member
USA
2822 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2010 : 5:55:29 PM
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Mickey,
Yeah, what Jeff said. Here's a photo showing two types of loop ends that Orvis uses on their flylines if the line doesn't have a molded loop.
On the top one they have tied on a piece of mono (about .023") with a nail knot and in the end of the mono they tied a Perfection Loop.
On the second one they just folded the fly line back on itself and made some nail knots to secure it - the mono is much smaller I'm not sure what the diameter is.
But like Jeff said the Perfection Loop tied with fly line would be too large to fit through the tip-top without frequently hanging up.
As for loops to replace tippet sections - it works fine. You don't see it as often as you might think because it is another thing to hang up, break or catch a fly on if you throw a tailing loop. Not that I've ever thrown a tailing loop.  |
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Dave M
Frequent Contributor
USA
812 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2010 : 10:56:34 AM
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You'll get as many different opinions on knots in ffing as you have ffers offering them.
Here's mine: If you like the loops...then by all means use them. They'll work just fine.If you are going to put a loop in the end of your flyline look up the "Whipped Loop" (sometimes called "Lefty's Loop")
As you get more experienced in ffing you'll probably end up using them less and less......or perhaps not. (No pun intended).
If you end up liking loops by all means learn the double surgeons loop and the Duncan Loop.
IMO (mine only)the best line connections are these:
Backing to flyline: (under 7 weight: Coated nail knot)(7 and over: Albright)
Flyline to leader butt: Whitlock "blind splice"
Different sections of leader: Blood knot(s)
Leader to tippet: Double surgeons (knot..*not* loop)
Tippet to fly: Duncan Loop (either cinched (dries) or left open: nymphs) OR Improved clinch
If you get into saltwater: Spider Hitch (Almost as strong as a Bimini Twist......10 times easier to tie).
Dave M |
Dave M |
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Mickey
Starting Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2010 : 3:25:30 PM
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Thanx for replies.
Dave- I'm not familiar with the Duncan Loop. I will be using nymphs, during the day, and changing over to drys later in the afternoon (per advice given to me from someone who fishs the Niagwa River), so am interested in the two ways to tie it. I will have to look it up.
Also interested in why the preference of the double surgeons vs the perfection?
As far as tying a loop directly on the end of the fly line- it is too large to fit through my rod tip so will take the advise and try something else.
Can anybody fill me in a little on braided leader? Think I read somewhere about using it with nymphs? Does it have less memory than regular mono and not kink as much?
Mickey |
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GotFlys
Frequent Contributor
USA
533 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2010 : 10:59:40 PM
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| When I started, I used store purchased tapered mono leaders. Eventually Mike turned me on to braided leaders, which work excellent and make swapping tipped very easy - the orvis braided leader I use has loops on both ends, which comes in handy since my wonderline comes with pre molded loops, and its easy to tie a small loop in my tippet. I still use some of my old tapered leaders from time to time, but not often. One benefiet of the double surgeons for leader to tippet is that the knot is incredibly strong, if tied right leaves a very small knot, and it keeps the leader and tippet in a straight line on both sides of the knot . . . I'm sure you've seen in many knots sometimes there is a slight angle on either side of the knot. I prefer to use loops on my fly line cause they are quick and easy, plus to be honest I'm lazy. Some of the guys more experienced than me always tie on their leader, and they catch fish so I'm certainly not gonna try and sway you from that method. Most of the time I have no problem with the loop to loop passing through my eyelets, especially since the wonderline molded loop is small and smooth. However, even before they started with the molded loops I used braided loops on fly line that didn't come with loops. Its basically the chinese finger trap method, there is several inches of braid that fits around your fly line and when you pull on it it cinches down - tighter you pull, tighter the braid grips your line. To keep the ends of the braid from fraying there is a little piece of heat shrink that comes in the package. These worked for me for years. As has been said by others, there are a lot of different ways to rig your gear - and I'm not going to say which is the best cause I honestly don't know, I just know what I like and what works for me. Try a couple different things and see what works for you. A quick internet search will show you exactly what any knot your unsure of is and how to tie it. Glad to see you picked up fly fishing, hope you really enjoy it!!! |
"It counts as a catch if you look the fish in the eye before he spits your fly" |
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GotFlys
Frequent Contributor
USA
533 Posts |
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Mickey
Starting Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2010 : 11:09:30 AM
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I am sure that often every fishman becomes frustrated, struggling to tie an uncooperating line onto some lure, and past injuries with subsequent nerve damage make this an ordeal for me. Funny, how the fish suddenly begin jumping all around at this moment. Anyway, this is why a loop to loop connection appeals to me.
I understand that everyone has an opinion and a favored knot- in most situations I find the more I ask the more I know, which leads me to find what suits me best. |
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Alan
Frequent Contributor
USA
323 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2010 : 3:45:00 PM
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Mickey
If you are using a loop to loop connection ie: a looped fly line to a perfection loop. Try teasing the perfection loop down to as small a size as possible and use a product called Knot Sense by Loon products to make a bullet shaped covering over the knot itself.
If you are using a store bought looped flyline and the loop is large you can run the leader with the perfection loop twice through the looped connection in the fly line. In some cases it will hold the loop in the fly line closed when pulled tight. Your perfection loop will have to be a bit larger when making it up than in my initial tying instructions if this is the case. |
A day without fishing is like a day without sunshine |
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ducfat
Starting Member
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 1:26:51 PM
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| I've been wondering that too! Everyone says bulk is an issue. I have been using the Whitlock splice to attach butt section with a perfection loop on the end, instead of nail knotting a butt section with loop end. Has been working fine on 4 thru 6 wt rigs I have until the butt section pulled out of the tip of my DT5F line last week. In a pinch, I tied a perfection loop directly in the end of my fly line. I made this as small as I could and sealed it with a little UV Knot Sense. Fished for 2 full days in Colorado without any issues. No hinging or hanging up in the tip top anymore than with other line to leader connections. The connection was only a little bulkier than the pre-welded loops that you can buy with certain lines and definitely not any bulkier than the nail knotted butt section with the perfection loop which results in two knots having to run thru your rod guieds. I'm going to run it this way until I need to reverse my line, and then maybe go with it again if I don't have any issues. I prefer the pre-welded loops, but not available on all lines. |
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Todd
Frequent Contributor
USA
320 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 09:10:48 AM
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Uni knot. Thats it. |
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Dave M
Frequent Contributor
USA
812 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 09:19:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ducfat
I have been using the Whitlock splice to attach butt section with a perfection loop on the end, instead of nail knotting a butt section with loop end. Has been working fine on 4 thru 6 wt rigs I have until the butt section pulled out of the tip of my DT5F line last week.
A Whitlock blind splice pulled out? Did you change it out at the start of this year?
I love the blind splice connection...but I'm fervent about having a new one installed every year. I actually try after putting it in to get the splice to either pull out...or break; and with the exception of one that wouldn't stay connected on a Sharkskin I've never had one fail. (Even Bruce Richards from Sci. Anglers was stumped as to why it continuously failed.) I tried several times with the same result. That's the only sub-7 weight line that I don't use the blind splice on.
I'm really curious to see if you installed that splice this year....or if it was several years old.
Dave M |
Dave M |
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ducfat
Starting Member
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 6:21:52 PM
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| Sorry, let me clarify. I had been using the Whitlock zap-a-gap splice and not his blind splice. First time I've had trouble with it. |
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what knots and why
